Friday, June 11, 2004 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

Q & A: Seattle's dating scene

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Seattle freelance writer Diane Mapes, who touched a chord with her story in Tuesday's Northwest Life section on the dismal dating scene in the region, answered your dating questions and comments during a live Q&A. She was assisted by Lisa Heyamoto, Seattle Times staff reporter.

If you'd like to continue discussing this topic, head over to the Times' Seattle Dating Blues discussion forum.

OK, I'm recently back in the dating scene, but I have to say that I disagree that women in Seattle are cold or hard to talk to. I'm a man, and the thing I notice about most men is, while they love to talk, they seldom listen. They're so insecure about who they are that they talk endlessly about themselves, puffing themselves up. Try smiling, listening, making a gentle joke, and respecting someone if they don't think you're Tom Cruise in their eyes. I'm no great looker, and it works for me. — Newbie, Seattle

Diane: God love ya, Newbie. I've actually timed men on dates who have talked for 48 minutes without asking me a single question about myself. I could have gone to the bathroom, done a little grocery shopping, walked the dog and come back to them still blathering on about their latest business conquest. (Lisa, by the way, refers to these types of people as "conversational masturbators.") The bottom line is: nobody likes a blowhard, which as most of us know, come in all sizes, shapes, colors and genders. You may be a newbie, Newbie, but you've stumbled onto a key dating truth. Run with it!

Diane and Lisa: Thanks to all of you who took the time to write in. Please stay connected via our online Dating Blues chat forum, and stay tuned to Northwest Life, which will continue to follow the Seattle dating scene.

I think gay guys are even worse. I don't think there's ONE out there who doesn't fit this pattern. First they say: "HEY! I really like you; I had fun. Let's go out again." And then they say NOTHING. That's the last you hear, after calling and e-mailing back to say, "Sure." I don't get it. What's wrong with the truth now and then? — Jerry, Seattle

Diane: Yes, from what I've heard, the gay dating scene is just as problematic as the straight dating scene. And apparently, everybody is pretty lame at being straight (if you'll pardon the term) with each other when it comes to letting a person know that they're not interested. I think all that any of us can try to do is to be honest, be kind, be respectful, and of course, be firm. (ahem)

I just go up to Canada and steal their men. Works for me. — Melanie W., Bellingham

Lisa: Steal their health care system, too, would ya?

I disagree that Internet dating has lost its stigma. Sure, it's more acceptable now, but it's still not something you can talk about in all social circles. Now there are lots of nice, sincere people online, along with the creeps. How can I tell the difference? — Kay, Seattle

Lisa: Well, that is the problem with online dating, isn't it? You don't have the kind of filters at your disposal that alert you to a creepy dude that you have in person. But most dating sites allow you to get to know someone a little better via e-mail before you meet in person. For example, at match.com (we swear, they aren't paying us to promote them!) you can have a bit of an e-mail conversation on their site before committing to a date or giving out your personal information. That way, you can screen for the weirdos before they're sitting in front of you.

Does online dating really work? Have you heard of success stories? — Paula, Seattle

Diane: As a matter of fact, I have heard success stories. A few of my friends have met their long-term beaus via match.com. And one of Lisa's friends is about to marry his Internet connection (not to be confused with marrying your ISP). Check it out.

I am 49 and just about to turn 50. I am interested in women my age but have a hard time finding active ones (snow ski, golf, water ski). What do you think about dating younger women? What's an acceptable age difference? — Larry, Bellingham

Lisa: Um, Larry, I haven't seen too many 50-year-old women with walkers and blue hair these days, so I don't know where you're looking. With every age, you're going to get people of varying degrees of active-ness, but don't give up on your age group just yet. We have heard from a ton of like-aged women who can pitch a tent in a driving blizzard, so rest assured, they're out there. And if you do opt to go younger, just remember: there's a certain bit of life experience that people share with their peers, and though you may land a fabulous 30-year-old fly-fisherwoman who can take down Mount Si in flip-flops, she'll be a lot more Robert Plant than Led Zepplin.

I'm originally from the U.K., and it seems like American men just want to remain single in order to keep "upgrading" women as they try to get closer to their goal of "Elle Macpherson with a degree in Molecular Biology and an old-money trust fund." It seems to me that they waste so much time overlooking perfectly acceptable women while holding out for someone impossible — why can't they just be like the Europeans: find a nice person you like and get along with, get married, and then just get on with living your lives together? Is this generation of adult single men doomed to end up sitting alone on their couches in dirty underwear at age 65 because they "held out" too long? — Currie, Seattle

Diane: Ah, the dangers of the capitalist society. We're starting to approach dating like we do everything else — time to upgrade! Dump Kathy 4.5 for Beverly 6.0! If these guys — and their female counterparts — don't figure out the old flash versus substance thing, then, yes, it's a dim future for them all.

What ever happened to casual sex? — Daryl, Seattle

Lisa: We're all too damn nice to go for casual sex, that's what. We're endlessly afraid of hurting other people's feelings.

How can someone who doesn't want to do online dating find a nice, intelligent, nonsmoking, drug-free date who still likes to have a good time on the town? — Celeste, Seattle

Lisa: Hi, Celeste. Um, so go out on the town. Online dating isn't for everyone, but for those of us who aren't that into it, it means putting yourself out there and taking some risks. And if asking someone if they come here often isn't your thing either, there are plenty of other in-person options, like speed-dating or singles' mixers. But that's not what you're really asking, is it? So here's my advice: gear yourself up and go out by yourself. Bars, coffee shops, the dog park, the gym. Go somewhere that you enjoy, and everyone there will already have something in common with you. Unless they're being held at secret gunpoint in line for a latte.

I am a native Washingtonian and travel with my job. I find the women here are not friendly or open to just chatting. When I am on the road, women approach me, buy me drinks or just strike up a conversation. Why aren't the women around here like that? — Bondy, Kirkland

Diane: Hey, Bondy, sure the women here can be a little on the guarded side. You have to remember, the Pacific Northwest is Serial Killer Central; we have to watch our backs! I know that sounds pretty flip, but women always need to be careful, and part of that is putting a perfect stranger through an assessment process. Be yourself, be nonthreatening, be nice, be persistent (but not, you know, like creepy persistent). If she's interested, she'll let you know.

I'm a 53-year-old, nearly divorced, active and still very sexy man. My friend says that it is up to a woman to determine if I am too old to date. What do you think? — Mike Johnson, Seattle

Diane: Hey, Mike, I'd be a little more concerned about that nearly-divorced thing than that am-I-too-old-to-have-sex thing.

I believe Internet dating is a very good way to go for people who are shy like myself and have specific qualities they're looking for in a companion. If you're rejected, it's easier to deal with since it's in private, rather than the awkwardness of public rejection at a bar or a singles activity. Furthermore, you can set your preferences to match up with women that are a good fit with your personality and lifestyle. — Bob F., Seattle

Lisa: Props, Bob. You, like a ton of folks in this city, get it. Online dating is a great way to get yourself out there and winnow out the folks that just won't do. Plus, I'm gonna say it now — it's officially lost its social stigma. So try some of the general sites such as match.com or friendster.com. And if you're really into Jack Russell terriers or would never date someone who wasn't a vegetarian, go to the niche sites. Trust me, they're there.

Am I expecting too much for a guy to pay for my dinner, open the car/restaurant door (and let me in first) or walk me to my car (if we drove separately) on a first date (or on any of the dates I have with him)? I also expect him to let me order first and to wash his hands before eating. Is this too much to ask? I always felt these were just basic manners. Am I missing something or did guys just forget? I won't go out a second time with a guy if he doesn't at least follow that and make two attempts to ask me about myself. I am not high maintenance but I like some level of interest, respect and adoration, even if it is a first date.
— Pam, West Seattle

I'm curious how do women feel about going Dutch on the first date? — Michael, Seattle

Diane: Pam, I'd be scared to date you, to tell you the truth. You say you're not high maintenance and maybe you're not, but you have some high expectations when it comes to your dates. Keep in mind, not all women WANT men to pay for their dinner. Some women realize that it's expensive to keep buying dinners and theater tickets and flowers and such, so they chip in. (Note to Mike: don't date Pam). If it's important to you to have men pony up the goods (or open the door, shower you with adoration, or whatever), then you need to make it clear from the start what your particular rules are, so the guys know which playbook to use. As for some of your other points, nobody wants to go on a date with someone who blathers on about themselves nonstop. We all want to be with someone who is interested in us.
Lisa: Mike, it's a modern-day truth universal: whoever does the asking should offer to pay. If you're the guy initiating the date, offer to pay. If she's uncomfortable with that, she'll thrown down her $20.

It's true that people seem to have an invisible bubble around them in Seattle. When in doubt, people seem to be most comfortable keeping to themselves. But don't you think you have to push through your own comfort level? If you never take any risks — like talking to someone at the farmer's market — you'll always be going home to reruns of "Seinfeld." Not fun. — Evan Hoover, Seattle

Lisa: You are absolutely right, Evan. I think the whole reason dating in Seattle sucks is because the dating scene is not one where people break out of their comfort levels. That's why we travel in packs, why we eschew come-ons, and why we're all a big bunch of wusses. I mean, even George Costanza got some ladies.
Diane: I'm right there with you, Evan, and with Lisa. What people sometimes forget is that it's actually fun to talk to strangers (as long as they're not holding butcher knives or anything). You learn something about someone else, you learn something about yourself.

I am a 48-year-old woman, never been married, no children, looking to meet a man who is a non-drinker. I am not involved in AA, but do not drink by choice. I would like to meet a man who feels the same. Where do you go to meet these men? I have been trying the grocery store, post office, church, and outdoor festivals, but have had no luck. Do all men need to have a drink to have fun? — Kris, Edmonds

Diane: You have a very specific target in mind, so I would think you might want to check out one of the niche dating sites. There are a ton of them out there in the ether — some geared to people with a particular political interest, or hobby, or passion for pets, you name it. My guess is there's probably a niche site out there for people who want to date nondrinkers. And if there's not, you can always go on a more generic dating site and list in your priorities that you want to date ONLY a nondrinker. I think this might work a bit better than simply trying to guess.

After having spent years in the greater Seattle area, I came to one conclusion. Women in the Seattle are don't want to date regular nice guys. They want a lawyer or an artist, not a guy who works hard 40 hours a week. It seems that there are a lot of women who have this vision of who they are going to end up with and refuse to let it go. It seems we regular guys don't have a chance (even though I'm currently involved in a serious relationship with someone from way up north). — Blake Wood, Mount Vernon

Lisa: I think plenty of girls want a nice normal guy, because then they'll have a nice normal life. Did it ever occur to you that you're going for a certain type of girl which isn't necessarily into a guy like you? I know this sounds harsh, but you're right — everybody has a type. I like quirky artistic guys. I like dorky guys. Funny guys. Someone who clicks with me and my sensibility. Is that wrong? Or is it just being true to myself. If you get out there in the dating world again, make sure you're going for the regular nice girls and not the bad boy lovers, etc.

I am from the East Coast. I am 28 and I have the body and face of a model. I'm extremely intelligent, and very bold, but also well mannered. I'll tell you what the problem with women in Seattle is: they are cowardly. All the bitchiness, the clumsy assertiveness, the mean-spiritedness — it is all just cowardice, and I'm sick of it. Reading your article made me feel the frustration well up in me. Where is the girl who, when I say "Hi", will stop, look me in the eye, and maybe with a smile say "Hi" back, with a look that says, "OK, what have you got?"

Most girls get scared, or maybe smile and keep walking, but if you "put them on the spot," where they may actually have to talk to you face to face, they are petrified. Poor scared creatures. Where is my brave goddess? Where is my sweet, free, loving girl? As LaRochefoucauld says, "The weak cannot be sincere." This is true of the scared too. — Mike, Seattle

Diane: No offense, Mike, but as my mother used to say, you sound just a tiny bit full of yourself. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing — if you've got the goods, it's great to know it. But you don't want to go around rubbing your goods in people's faces (so to speak). Obviously, you are a confident guy. You need to date an equally confident woman, anyone else is going to come in under your very high bar. Try your gym. You future sweetheart is probably over in the corner right now bench pressing her nutritionist.