Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

Q&A: Dating after 40

Seattle Times contributor Diane Mapes answered your dating questions and comments during a live Q&A. If you'd like to continue discussing this topic, head over to the Times' discussion forum.

Read her story on "Looking for love after 40."

Please educate males over 40 to stop with the grey beards! It is like dating Santa. Talk about looking old, old, old! Seems like they care enough about their appearance to do good grooming, but it is beyond ugly! Gee, ever wonder why so many guys on match over 45 are still on match? I know I simply pass them by as soon as I see that grey beard!
— Pat, Seattle

Diane Mapes: Hi Pat:

Consider the word officially out. Guys, if you have a gray beard and want to go out with Pat, shave. And if you have a gray beard and you suspect you may run into Pat online, shave. If you don't care a whit about Pat and what she thinks but wonder if your whiskers may be grampifying you before your time, then ask a few close friends (and a couple of strangers) what they think. The bottom line: it's your face, somebody will love it either way.

I am 47, single, live downtown, no kids and very little baggage. When I go out it seems the women who are around my own age travel in packs of threes. They come in as a pack and leave as a pack. Where in Seattle do women in their 40s feel comfortable going by themselves? How many of those who do go out, go in packs of threes? I am interested in what this percentage happens to be.
— Mark, Seattle

Diane: Hey Mark:

I heard a lot about these intimidating "circles of death" last year when I was doing my Dating Blues stories for the Times. Sounds like when we're younger, our packs are larger (five to seven), then the pack shrinks over time. When we're in our 40s, our pack has diminished to three. I guess when we're 70, our right leg may go out on the town by itself.

I do know that approaching even three women huddled together can be intimidating for men. But one nice aspect of being in your 40s is that you've outgrown a lot of the foolish insecurities that led you to shoot down every guy who had the audacity to approach you and your girlfriends while you were out on the town. Instead of looking for places where you can find women alone (remember: we can be even more wary then), why not just steel yourself and walk up and say hi to these trios? Or catch the eye of one and raise your glass in a toast. If there's some interest, I'm sure you two will find a way to communicate.

Isn't it true that most women really aren't that attracted to "nice" guys? No matter what they say, "nice" and "no drama" doesn't seem to be what women are looking for. How are nice guys supposed to hook up?
— Allan, Des Moines

Diane: Dear Allan:

Sure, there are some women who go for the bad boys. And they usually pay for it with a few moments of fire and music and many more months (or even years) of tears, heartache and even serious abuse. So no, "most" women are not attracted to the black sheep of the dating family. What most people are attracted to is confidence and that's where "nice guys" (and "nice girls," mind you) can fall short. Bad boys usually have abundant amounts of confidence (not to mention its evil twin, arrogance), but a lot of times, nice guys have trouble asserting themselves in a manner that's attractive to women. Women love nice guys. It's doormats they have trouble with. So believe in yourself and get out there -- there are a lot of women who would love to meet you.

Why is it that every woman I date seems to have a long list of roles that men are to fill: lead, make money, open doors, give gifts, etc., yet when asked what her roles are she goes silent, like there are none?
— Kurt, Bothell

Diane: Hi Kurt:

Good old gender roles , the scourge of the F-Zone. You've hit on an excellent point here because one of the biggest problems for a lot of 40- and 50-something dates is that they're in a dating pool that includes people with all sorts of ideas about who is supposed to do what to whom and when. Depending on when you were born and how you were raised, you could have been conditioned to believe that men do all the courting, pay for all the dates, open all the doors, and make all the decisions. O r you could believe that men and women should share expenses (dating and otherwise) and whomever gets to the door first should do the opening. Obviously, we're still at a bit of cultural crossroads here -- there's a lot of confusion exactly because we're in flux. But flux and confusion is good -- it means things are moving along, changing and growing. Personally, I find it a little dangerous to make proclamations about one gender's "role" without acknowledging that the door swings both ways. Perhaps the next time one of these women provides you with a list of your gender-based duties, you should hand her a basket of your dirty laundry.

I am 52 now, have been dating for 12 years in the Seattle area since my divorce at age 40 after one 15-year marriage and 2 kids. I've done it all: Personal ads, online dating, singles dances, blind dates, hanging out in the bars and nightclubs. For me, online dating on Match.com and Yahoo.com have been the best by far. Its the only place I turn to now when I'm looking to date. Likewise for almost all of my over-40 friends. What surprised me the most about your article was the absence of any discussion about the complaint I keep hearing over and over from single guys over 40: That so many single women are so fat, so completely out of shape. And I'm talking 30 pounds or more on a 5-foot-4-inch to 5-foot-9-inch women. This is the biggest problem for the single men in Seattle over 40.
— PH

Diane: Dear PH:

I do hear lots of complaints about women being overweight, just as I hear lots of complaints about guys being overweight, or bald, or uneducated or just plain shallow. It's always something. Obviously, we live in a society where looks count, so yes, when we go out into the dating world, we want to look our best. But there are many different standards of beauty in this country, some of which are quite unrealistic.

What is fit and fat to you may not be fit or fat to the next person. It may not even be healthy. Should a woman look like Renee Zellweger in Bridget Jones? Or Renee Zellweger in Chicago? Should a man look like Ralph Fiennes? Or Ralph Kramden? It's all a personal preference. Trust me, I've heard plenty of success stories from Plump Patties and lots of mournful complaints from Skinny Minnies -- happiness cannot be weighed on a scale. People will go out with those they're attracted to physically and otherwise. If you're not attracted to women who are overweight, then don't go out with them. But do keep in mind that there may be certain aspects to your physical makeup that aren't attractive to women. Just look how Pat felt about those gray beards!

Read Match.com profiles and it's clear that even the most unattractive, overweight, unsuccessful men think they deserve a woman at least 10 years younger. Do these guys ever actually find a woman desperate enough to date them?
— Emily, Seattle

Diane: Hi Emily:

Well, one can hope, right? We all go out there with high hopes and a lot of people have the confidence (or chutzpah) to hope for the best. Don't be discouraged by this kind of behavior. Maybe these guys aren't actually all that hideous. Or maybe they are. Either way, they have every right to try to find person they think they deserve. As do you.

I am 42 years old and divorced. Must tell you, I have had no trouble on the dating scene, and I am overweight (but still kinda cute). I know many women and men my age in the dating pool, and I can tell you, both sides are too picky and not willing to give someone a chance. As mentioned in your article, they see even the slightest flaw, and they're outta there. And as far as older guys wanting younger women, I wouldn't even be interested in a guy that superficial. And I am sorry, but any 43-year-old looking for an "18-year-old soul mate" is a callow idiot. Same for women who look at a man's social/financial status and walk if it's not up to par. I'll take the passionate, funny, slightly chubby 43-year-old I'm dating right now, thanks!
— Michele, Portland, Ore.

Diane: Hi Michele:

Funny you should write in. I was just talking to PH earlier, who felt that being overweight was a serious hindrance to dating. Good for you for finding someone that you click with. And for recognizing that perhaps more than weight, unwarranted pickiness, can be the real hindrance to happiness.

I'm 65 and posted that recent photo and profile on Match.com and Americansingles.com. I got 172 hits the first two days. Guys ranging in age from 28 to 70. I read all the profiles and picked one guy (he's just 8 years younger than me) and we are in a very serious relationship now. It isn't about age so much as it's about your attitude, your interests, your sexual attractiveness, and your life experiences. The kind of guys I attracted were interested in my background (writer/editor, horse breeder, political interests) and my attitude about myself. Guys who weren't interested in a smart woman didn't make contact. Every single man that responded was a successful, educated, confident guy. Some guys were so insistent on meeting me (even after I told them I was committed to this man I love now) that they kept writing me e-mails despite my refusals. Enthusiasm for life, thoughtfulness, and a positive attitude should not be underrated.
— Sandra

Diane: Hi Sandra:

A great success story and a great point. A positive attitude will take you far in this life … in your case, it seems you're headed for the moon (or perhaps a Vegas wedding?). Cheers!

Who are all these people who have all these problems? Most of the women I meet are great ladies, some compatible with me, most not, but still great people. I have no problems getting dates and most of the women I know seem to be able to get a date if they want one. I can't help but wonder who all these people are who have all these relationship problems. What are they looking for? Do they expect the right man or woman to be gift wrapped and delivered to their door?
— Anthony, Bellevue

Diane: Hey Anthony:

Great to hear from someone who's not having trouble out there. Could be that you have a more upbeat attitude, that you've done "your work" as they say, or it could be that you're just naturally rooted in a good social network where you're meeting the right kind of people. All kinds of people have dating problems, Anthony. Granted, some are of their own making (if you've ever been out on a date with someone who spends 45 minutes bitching and moaning about their "ex," you know what I mean). But there are many more happy, well-adjusted, fun-loving and available people who just can't seem to meet others of their ilk. Meeting people is tough when you work 10 to 12 hour days, spend your time rushing around from errand to errand alone in your car, live in a city away from your family and college friends, and crash in front of the TV or home computer instead of going out bowling once a week. We don't have the old social networks that helped us meet new people (luckily, there are many new such networks that are cropping up). So yes, we all sometime have dreams about "the one" making his or her way to us -- it's much easier than going out there and beating the bushes. But that's what we need to do -- make the effort and they'll arrive at our door eventually (giftwrapping optional).

Having turned 50 this year, where do single people over 40 go to meet? Even though I enjoy going out every now and then, I feel so out of place at a night club where most of the crowd is in their 20s and 30s.
— Garry, Seattle

Diane: Hey Garry:

Where oh where are the people I want to meet? It's the number one question I hear from singles. The top three ways to meet a potential date are 1) through work, 2) through friends and other social networks, including pubs and clubs, and 3) via the Internet. In other words, they're all around you, unless you spend all your time clubbing with 20-somethings. If you're looking to meet singles your age in bars, try going to your neighborhood pub, like the Hilltop Ale House on Queen Anne, rather than a huge club scene. If you're looking for social networks (social clubs for singles), Seattle has plenty, both online and off. Try Space City Mixer, Playdateseattle.com, the Mountaineers (if outdoorsy stuff is of interest to you at all), or just cruise around Craig's List under groups or events. Check out iloveseattle.org and you'll find a slew of professional, artistic or cultural groups that you can join. They're not exclusively single, but they'll definitely get you out of the house and onto the right path.

I resent the heterosexual assumption in the question. As a gay guy (48 years old), I look for chemistry between us, a balanced person, the relationship has a positive effect on our individual lives.
— Wilbur, Seattle

Diane: Hey Wilbur:

Yes, this particular story (and the related Q & A) does touch on heterosexual dating issues, although obviously, there are lots of different kinds of relationships out there. Personally, I'd love to focus on the issues faced by single gays in a future story, although it doesn't sound like you're having any trouble. Good on ya!

Most of the women 45-50 who act "available" have children and are either looking for support or a father figure for their children. I raised a son by myself from 9 months to college (he's 23 now) and at 52 I don't want to do that again. Also, single moms I know tend to put a new spouse second or third in the pecking order behind kid(s) and their own career, but they want to be number one to the guy.
— Richard, Auburn

Diane: Hi Richard:

Yes, kids need to be put ahead of the new boyfriend or girlfriend. They're kids -- they need supervision, love, protection, juice boxes. If the boyfriend or girlfriend becomes a spouse, the dynamic will change a bit, of course, but until then, be prepared to a back seat (next to the car seat).

Truly, would you want to go out with someone who neglected their children for you?

With regard to your thoughts on single moms looking for support, I have heard of this phenomenon (usually from cranky radio talk show hosts), but also I've heard of many single moms who are doing just fine on their own. The bottom line: if you're not interested in having kids in your life, don't go out with women who have kids. And um … use protection.

I think the hardest part of dating over 40 is knowing who's single and who's not. What's the best way to ask without sounding too forward?
— Anne, Seattle

Diane: Hey Anne:

Yep, even if that oh-so-subtle "ring check" comes up empty, you never truly know if someone is unattached without them coming right out and saying so. I've found that when I engage men in conversation (which I do regularly, along with women, small children, grandparents, pets and sometimes trees), they'll usually employ what I call the "we shield" fairly soon. "Yes, we were going to see that movie but it was sold out." Or "We went to that restaurant and it's fabulous." It's an attached guy's subtle way of letting you know if he's unavailable. It's cute -- and usually a little clunky -- but you've got to give them credit. If you're not hearing about a girlfriend or wife and you're not seeing a ring, I think it's perfectly fine to come right out and ask. Something straightforward like "Hey, cute guy, what's the best way to ask if you're single without sounding too forward" should work splendidly.

One of the problems in establishing a new relationship after 40 is that men and women are tired at working on what it takes to establish and maintain a relationship. Some want a relationship, but they don't want to do the work to make it happen. They want the silver bullet ... they want the soul mate! To me, the soul mate is the person that is ideal for them without the work. I got bad news, relationships take work. As people get older, they resist change. New relationships take change. You have the choice.
— Dave, Bothell

Diane: Hi Dave:

Ah yes, the mythic soul mate. I don't know where the concept of the soul mate originally came from, but it seems that it's transmogrified over the years, and has now become this glowing mythic creation that blinds us with its flawless wonder. It's our ideal, our Nirvana. The perfect partner! The perfect person!

Unfortunately, this perfect person doesn't exist. But instead of acknowledging this, we dismiss one potential partner after the other because they possess some flaw. Their eyes blink too much. They like to watch wrestling. The trouble is, we're all fabulously flawed -- we just have to find people whose flaws complement ours.

I am 44 raising a teenage boy. I have been in several relationships with older woman 7 to 10 years older. I have put dating on hold for now. I know in my heart she will come into my life when God decides it's time. Don't get me wrong, I notice women, but married woman don't seem to wear their rings anymore so after you approach them and they say "No, I'm married," you get gun shy. I am a handsome man with a great job with lots of love and kindness to offer, but no one to share it with. I know the day will come. Thanks.
— Bob, Arlington

Diane: Dear Bob:

Taking a break from dating can be a really healthy thing. In fact, one woman I know calls her dating time-outs "going through men-pause." If you're raising a teenager, you have your hands full. It simply may not be a good time to date. So many people are so terrified of being alone that they leap into relationships with the first person who happens along, whether that person is right for them or not. And that can lead to many more problems, certainly more than you'd ever get into on your own. Enjoy your alone time -- do things with your son, work on some fun projects, maybe even take yourself on as a project. Take classes, travel, learn something new about the world and about who you are. And when the day comes, get your butt out there with the rest of us.

I am recently divorced after a 22-year marriage with a gal who was 13 years my junior. I believe she finally decided I was too old for her lifestyle. I wasn't looking for a younger woman, she just came into my life. Most all of our friends were her age rather than mine. Now, when I look to date again I find that I am not generally attracted to women my own age, I'm just not used to associating with them. But, here I am, classified as an older man looking for a younger woman as a showpiece, or some other superficial reason. I am mature, stable, educated, caring. I'd be a good companion to any woman. But, the social attitude is against me. Any suggestions?
— Jim, Kent

Diane: Dear Jim:

I don't know if the social attitude is against you, anymore than the social attitude is against women who feel more at home with a younger man. But the older man-younger woman (particularly if she's a showpiece, as you say) will produce a few societal eye rolls. That's just the way of the world.

Human beings can be a callous, cynical bunch -- quick to judge, slow to forgive, and ready to burst your justification bubble in an instant. But what do you care? You don't have to date society. Live your life and go find yourself a nice girl (um, make that woman).

I have four kids and live in a trailer. I need to find a man who understands that poverty shouldn't be the first thing a man looks at. Can you help?
— Jess, Monroe

Diane: Hi Jess:

It sounds like you have a lot of challenges in your life -- not just finding companionship, but taking care of a large family on a limited budget. I don't know what kind of resources you have at home, but if you don't have a home computer to check out online dating sites you can always use the computers at the library. Although you don't hear about them as much as the paying sites like Match.com or Perfectmatch.com, there are free dating sites available, such as webdate.com. Even Craig's List lets you post personal ads for free. In your ad, you can mention that you're a single mom and that you're not living in the lap of luxury, which will immediately provide those who aren't interested in a budget lifestyle with the info they need. You'll also want to highlight the things you have to offer -- you're a loving person, you make a mean meatloaf, you have a great sense of humor, whatever. Once you start meeting men, you'll then have a chance to vet them. If you meet someone who looks down on you for financial reasons, forget about them. They're not worth your time.

I've tried to meet women in grocery stores, gas stations, on the street -- in daily life with very little success. Women seem to be so keen on disqualifying and not interested in going on a date. Why is this? What do they have to lose by just going on a date?
— Todd, Seattle

Diane: Hey Todd:

Great to hear from a guy who actually approaches women. I hear from a lot of women who want men to speak to them and can't figure out why they don't, especially in "nice/ice" Seattle. I think women are definitely on guard when a strange man approaches them, and very few will automatically accept a date from a stranger on the spot. As an intelligent man, you understand the reasoning behind that. What helps is having the chance to get to know someone a little, bit by bit. When you approach these women at the grocery store, the gas station, on the street, etc., don't necessarily push for a date on the spot. Instead, have a nice conversation, tell them you've enjoyed speaking to them, give them an e-mail address where they can reach you, and perhaps let them know where you might be found in the future. "This has been fun, if you're interested in visiting again, you can usually catch me at the HopVine Pub on Wednesday nights." Keep it really low pressure, maybe even imply that they you're going to be with a group of friends and they should bring friends. Anything that seems fun and safe is going to get much more of a success rate.

Why do men hang on to relationships that have long expired? It is difficult to find a man who is truly unattached. Is it convenient sex? Is it insecurity and fear of being alone?
— Carolyn , Bellingham

Diane: Hey Carolyn:

I don't know that guys are the only ones who stay in relationships long past the expiration date, any more than women are the only ones who push for commitment. When we fall in love with someone, it's hard to let go.Even when things get ugly, it can be hard to let go. And sometimes we're able to maintain great friendships with our past boyfriends and girlfriends. I can't imagine that you would prefer to date men who have acrimonious relationships with all of their exes. Seems like it would be far better to be involved with someone who's been able to stay friends with former girlfriend. Just not "friend with benefits."